来讨论一下进化论吧,为何进化论为何成了异端邪说,那还有更正确的吗

  • k
    kelaredbull
    你身上的那个瘤子不会遗传,但你容易受斯米达电波辐射而产生瘤子的特质是可以遗传的。所谓家族病史就是这个玩意。
  • 大头木
    不是一个实验

    人类还没有证明声明是随机产生的,甚至还没有发现其它星球的生命

    也有科学家说大家都是外星人,是彗星带回来到地球的微生物
  • O
    OpEth
    外星生命播种论其实根本没解释生命起源问题,因为外星生命也不是凭空蹦出来的,肯定也有个起源问题存在。。。。。

    [本帖最后由 OpEth 于 2010-5-28 11:27 编辑]
  • 大头木
    有在水边生活了几百万年的人类,和在森林里生活了几百万年的人类

    按照进化论来说,我觉得他们基本就没进化

    日照比较多的人变得黑了点这也算进化的话这进化论也太神奇了

    如果进化都是因为基因产生突变而产生新物种,人类这几百万年的运气也太差了
  • k
    kiler
    不是说短脖子的长颈鹿吃不到树叶,都死掉了吗。
  • 伊弗列姆
    受教。

    但是,挣扎一下:
    “对跳蚤说‘跳’,于是跳蚤跳;
    敲断跳蚤的腿,对跳蚤说‘跳’,跳蚤不跳——于是得出结论:敲断腿后跳蚤听不到声音”
    我对西方的这种研究方法,或者说哲学,一直有成见。
  • h
    handsomeken
    有的。
    文章我找找。
  • 大头木
    首先得解决长脖子的长颈鹿是怎么产生的,基因突变?

    只有长颈鹿能吃到树叶,按道理短脖子的生物,牛啊马啊之类的也该死光鸟啊
  • 教师随笔
    人那么好勇斗狠,稍微脑残点儿的种族基本被消灭干净或者同化了。再说了,人和动物不一样的是不是被动适应环境,自然环境很难改变人的一些特性。还有就是,人是唯一一辈子基本都在发情期的,其他动物可不是,人异族通婚一直不间断,现在人和古代人就不完全一样,好比古埃及人和现在埃及人压根就不是一个族群,现在是阿拉伯人,是闪族人、库尔德人和撒拉逊人的后代。
  • 萨尔瓦多达利
    进化论是通过一系列证据而得出的推论。目前看来起码比什么上帝造人靠谱100倍。
  • h
    handsomeken
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/1 ... d=1&ref=science

    New Glimpses of Life’s Puzzling Origins

    A START In one view of the beginnings of life, depicted in an animation, carbon monoxide molecules condense on hot mineral surfaces underground to form fatty acids, above, which are then expelled from geysers.

    Published: June 15, 2009
    Some 3.9 billion years ago, a shift in the orbit of the Sun’s outer planets sent a surge of large comets and asteroids careening into the inner solar system. Their violent impacts gouged out the large craters still visible on the Moon’s face, heated Earth’s surface into molten rock and boiled off its oceans into an incandescent mist.

    Yet rocks that formed on Earth 3.8 billion years ago, almost as soon as the bombardment had stopped, contain possible evidence of biological processes. If life can arise from inorganic matter so quickly and easily, why is it not abundant in the solar system and beyond? If biology is an inherent property of matter, why have chemists so far been unable to reconstruct life, or anything close to it, in the laboratory?

    The origins of life on Earth bristle with puzzle and paradox. Which came first, the proteins of living cells or the genetic information that makes them? How could the metabolism of living things get started without an enclosing membrane to keep all the necessary chemicals together? But if life started inside a cell membrane, how did the necessary nutrients get in?

    The questions may seem moot, since life did start somehow. But for the small group of researchers who insist on learning exactly how it started, frustration has abounded. Many once-promising leads have led only to years of wasted effort. Scientists as eminent as Francis Crick, the chief theorist of molecular biology, have quietly suggested that life may have formed elsewhere before seeding the planet, so hard does it seem to find a plausible explanation for its emergence on Earth.

    In the last few years, however, four surprising advances have renewed confidence that a terrestrial explanation for life’s origins will eventually emerge.

    One is a series of discoveries about the cell-like structures that could have formed naturally from fatty chemicals likely to have been present on the primitive Earth. This lead emerged from a long argument between three colleagues as to whether a genetic system or a cell membrane came first in the development of life. They eventually agreed that genetics and membranes had to have evolved together.

    The three researchers, Jack W. Szostak, David P. Bartel and P. Luigi Luisi, published a somewhat adventurous manifesto in Nature in 2001, declaring that the way to make a synthetic cell was to get a protocell and a genetic molecule to grow and divide in parallel, with the molecules being encapsulated in the cell. If the molecules gave the cell a survival advantage over other cells, the outcome would be “a sustainable, autonomously replicating system, capable of Darwinian evolution,” they wrote.

    “It would be truly alive,” they added.

    One of the authors, Dr. Szostak, of the Massachusetts General Hospital, has since managed to achieve a surprising amount of this program.

    Simple fatty acids, of the sort likely to have been around on the primitive Earth, will spontaneously form double-layered spheres, much like the double-layered membrane of today’s living cells. These protocells will incorporate new fatty acids fed into the water, and eventually divide.

    Living cells are generally impermeable and have elaborate mechanisms for admitting only the nutrients they need. But Dr. Szostak and his colleagues have shown that small molecules can easily enter the protocells. If they combine into larger molecules, however, they cannot get out, just the arrangement a primitive cell would need. If a protocell is made to encapsulate a short piece of DNA and is then fed with nucleotides, the building blocks of DNA, the nucleotides will spontaneously enter the cell and link into another DNA molecule.

    At a symposium on evolution at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on Long Island last month, Dr. Szostak said he was “optimistic about getting a chemical replication system going” inside a protocell. He then hopes to integrate a replicating nucleic acid system with dividing protocells.

    Dr. Szostak’s experiments have come close to creating a spontaneously dividing cell from chemicals assumed to have existed on the primitive Earth. But some of his ingredients, like the nucleotide building blocks of nucleic acids, are quite complex. Prebiotic chemists, who study the prelife chemistry of the primitive Earth, have long been close to despair over how nucleotides could ever have arisen spontaneously.

    Nucleotides consist of a sugar molecule, like ribose or deoxyribose, joined to a base at one end and a phosphate group at the other. Prebiotic chemists discovered with delight that bases like adenine will easily form from simple chemicals like hydrogen cyanide. But years of disappointment followed when the adenine proved incapable of linking naturally to the ribose.

    Last month, John Sutherland, a chemist at the University of Manchester in England, reported in Nature his discovery of a quite unexpected route for synthesizing nucleotides from prebiotic chemicals. Instead of making the base and sugar separately from chemicals likely to have existed on the primitive Earth, Dr. Sutherland showed how under the right conditions the base and sugar could be built up as a single unit, and so did not need to be linked.

    “I think the Sutherland paper has been the biggest advance in the last five years in terms of prebiotic chemistry,” said Gerald F. Joyce, an expert on the origins of life at the Scripps Research Institute in La Jolla, Calif.

    Once a self-replicating system develops from chemicals, this is the beginning of genetic history, since each molecule carries the imprint of its ancestor. Dr. Crick, who was interested in the chemistry that preceded replication, once observed, “After this point, the rest is just history.”

    Dr. Joyce has been studying the possible beginning of history by developing RNA molecules with the capacity for replication. RNA, a close cousin of DNA, almost certainly preceded it as the genetic molecule of living cells. Besides carrying information, RNA can also act as an enzyme to promote chemical reactions. Dr. Joyce reported in Science earlier this year that he had developed two RNA molecules that can promote each other’s synthesis from the four kinds of RNA nucleotides.

    “We finally have a molecule that’s immortal,” he said, meaning one whose information can be passed on indefinitely. The system is not alive, he says, but performs central functions of life like replication and adapting to new conditions.

    “Gerry Joyce is getting ever closer to showing you can have self-replication of RNA species,” Dr. Sutherland said. “So only a pessimist wouldn’t allow him success in a few years.”

    Another striking advance has come from new studies of the handedness of molecules. Some chemicals, like the amino acids of which proteins are made, exist in two mirror-image forms, much like the left and right hand. In most naturally occurring conditions they are found in roughly equal mixtures of the two forms. But in a living cell all amino acids are left-handed, and all sugars and nucleotides are right-handed.

    Prebiotic chemists have long been at a loss to explain how the first living systems could have extracted just one kind of the handed chemicals from the mixtures on the early Earth. Left-handed nucleotides are a poison because they prevent right-handed nucleotides linking up in a chain to form nucleic acids like RNA or DNA. Dr. Joyce refers to the problem as “original syn,” referring to the chemist’s terms syn and anti for the structures in the handed forms.

    The chemists have now been granted an unexpected absolution from their original syn problem. Researchers like Donna Blackmond of Imperial College London have discovered that a mixture of left-handed and right-handed molecules can be converted to just one form by cycles of freezing and melting.

    With these four recent advances — Dr. Szostak’s protocells, self-replicating RNA, the natural synthesis of nucleotides, and an explanation for handedness — those who study the origin of life have much to be pleased about, despite the distance yet to go. “At some point some of these threads will start joining together,” Dr. Sutherland said. “I think all of us are far more optimistic now than we were five or 10 years ago.”

    One measure of the difficulties ahead, however, is that so far there is little agreement on the kind of environment in which life originated. Some chemists, like Günther Wächtershäuser, argue that life began in volcanic conditions, like those of the deep sea vents. These have the gases and metallic catalysts in which, he argues, the first metabolic processes were likely to have arisen.

    But many biologists believe that in the oceans, the necessary constituents of life would always be too diluted. They favor a warm freshwater pond for the origin of life, as did Darwin, where cycles of wetting and evaporation around the edges could produce useful concentrations and chemical processes.

    No one knows for sure when life began. The oldest generally accepted evidence for living cells are fossil bacteria 1.9 billion years old from the Gunflint Formation of Ontario. But rocks from two sites in Greenland, containing an unusual mix of carbon isotopes that could be evidence of biological processes, are 3.830 billion years old.

    How could life have gotten off to such a quick start, given that the surface of the Earth was probably sterilized by the Late Heavy Bombardment, the rain of gigantic comets and asteroids that pelted the Earth and Moon around 3.9 billion years ago? Stephen Mojzsis, a geologist at the University of Colorado who analyzed one of the Greenland sites, argued in Nature last month that the Late Heavy Bombardment would not have killed everything, as is generally believed. In his view, life could have started much earlier and survived the bombardment in deep sea environments.

    Recent evidence from very ancient rocks known as zircons suggests that stable oceans and continental crust had emerged as long as 4.404 billion years ago, a mere 150 million years after the Earth’s formation. So life might have had half a billion years to get started before the cataclysmic bombardment.

    But geologists dispute whether the Greenland rocks really offer signs of biological processes, and geochemists have often revised their estimates of the composition of the primitive atmosphere. Leslie Orgel, a pioneer of prebiotic chemistry, used to say, “Just wait a few years, and conditions on the primitive Earth will change again,” said Dr. Joyce, a former student of his.

    Chemists and biologists are thus pretty much on their own in figuring out how life started. For lack of fossil evidence, they have no guide as to when, where or how the first forms of life emerged. So they will figure life out only by reinventing it in the laboratory.

    [本帖最后由 handsomeken 于 2010-5-28 11:37 编辑]
  • 大头木
    我觉得战争就是最符合进化论物竞天择的一个筛选场

    但是连年的战争没见得突变出或者进化出啥高级的人种
  • 伊弗列姆
    这个解释了为什么没有短脖子的长颈鹿,但是不能解释为什么长颈鹿的脖子会像现在看到的那么长。
    进化论的观点是:
    第一群里有一个脖子半米长的,这个半米长的容易活下来,生了下了第二群。
    第二群里有一个突变了,脖子40厘米长,这个40厘米长的容易活下来,生下了第三群。
    第三群里又有一个突变了,脖子50厘米长。。。
    一直突变到现在这么长。

    用进废退是:
    我要吃树顶上的叶子,所以我一直努力的向上抻我的脖子,它就那么渐渐地长长了。

    对我来说,用进废退比较容易接受。
    当然,刚刚被驳倒了。
  • 教师随笔
    现在欧洲人的祖先克罗马农人也是现代人走出非洲的,亚洲美洲的还是,不过区区几万年,肤色外貌上不也有挺大差异了?只不过人发展太快,现在满世界乱跑,交通越发达人族群间的差异只会更小。不像动物,活动范围或者迁徙路线很稳定,环境差异很容易导致物种多样性。人也不是没有环境封闭导致个体差异大的例子,藏民血细胞携氧能力就比一般人高得多,爱斯基摩人比多数印第安人矮小耐冻。
  • k
    kelaredbull
    请关注一下现代人脑容量的变化,然后理解一下自从我们开始吃熟肉,种内的战斗力已经不再主要依赖于肌肉了。
  • O
    OpEth
    人类的进化早就已经脱离自然范畴了,很多其他因素占据了主导位置,比如有钱有权的人的后代较多(比如中山靖王刘胜之类的),穷人可能打一辈子光棍没法把自己的基因流传下去,诸如此类非自然因素已经远远凌驾了生存竞争的压力。。。。。

    所以你拿人类做进化论的反面例子是不适当的,进化论只是解释自然进化的理论,人类的情况要复杂得多,没法硬套进化论。。。。。
  • z
    zo
    我觉得进化论有个问题,
    依照进化论的逻辑,发展到最后必定是物种大幅灭绝,最强的几个物种生存下来。目前看地球生态的变化证实了这一点。

    那么,物种的数量总会持续减少,这可能是进化论的内在规律。

    问题来了,当初怎么会从单一细胞发展出这么多不同类别的生态?
  • 火影五代目
    关于人类的起源,这我看过些资料,像尼安德塔人或者北京猿人,都已经灭亡了,现在的人类只是一种人--智人的后代,从非洲走出不过几万年历史而已
  • O
    OpEth
    而且人类择偶的标准也经常变化,没有一个定向的选择,就没法产生定向的演化。。。。。
  • O
    OpEth
    这是你的逻辑,不是进化论的逻辑,谢谢。。。。。
  • O
    OpEth
    对进化论感兴趣的话,推荐一本入门读物《自私的基因》,下载很好找。。。。。
  • z
    zo
    请你反证。
    最近5千年,灭绝的物种有多少,新生的物种有多少?
  • n
    nusub
    技术贴,路过
  • O
    OpEth
    在物种演化史上,5k年这个时间段和一秒钟没什么区别。。。。。


    另外,主要还是产生了人类这个毒瘤啊,这五千年的地球完全就是人类的天下。。。。。
  • 再世霸王袁世凯
    很快大家都会明白的,这明显是异端邪说。
  • N
    Nothing
    不同的生物在一个生态圈里是以一种难以想象的复杂的关系联系在一起的,如果有一种物种过强,导致它的食物或者竞争对手大量灭绝,可能最终反而导致它自身的灭亡。
  • 真的无昵称
    这。。。。。。。。。。不是据说要吃树上的叶子么。。。。。。。。。。
  • l
    literry2001
    进化论描述了竞争,但是更重要的是让人们理解了什么是生态平衡
  • 金眼妖瞳
    谁能告诉我,最早得那个小水洼里面的蛋白质是哪里来得?
  • a
    allensakura
    沒人知道達爾文寫完天演論後又寫了一本書來補足進化論的不足?
  • k
    kelaredbull
    那个小水洼里面的蛋白质变成生命到没解释清楚,但是放电在那个小水洼里面可以产生氨基酸这可是基本了吧。
  • a
    allensakura
    為什麼不能解釋?
    長頸鹿的祖先本來就是吃樹上的嫩葉,當較低的嫩葉都被吃光時高度較低的長頸鹿祖先自然競爭不過較高的種類
  • a
    allensakura
    錯了
    所謂的發情期在生理上是指排卵期,人類的排卵期非常的短
  • 脾气不太好
    生物并不是一直在追求大强,而是在追求如何让自己后代生存下去,所以有变大变强的,也有变小变跑得多,或是生得多的....
  • n
    neomovie
    如果这样倒更像是“用进费退”了,相对于进化论,我觉得用进废退更有道理,比如你不是个肌肉男,你可以通过努力锻炼成为肌肉男,然后生个儿子还是努力锻炼。。。。这样慢慢的你传下的基因里就有很大的“肌肉男”的倾向,这是用进废退。而现在的进化论是,这个环境需要肌肉男,我们当中的人的后代突然变异出来个肌肉男,然后这个肌肉男把自己的基因发扬光大,使得绝大多数人都变成肌肉男,也就是说我们的进化实际是来源于众多的基因突变中的那个可以适应环境的

    回到长颈鹿的问题上,长颈鹿不是只是脖子长,腿长,这么简单,他需要发展出一系列和脖子长腿长相配套的东西,比如强大的心脏,用于防止低头时颅亚过高而爆血管的隔膜,腿脚部能够承受极大压力的血管。着一些类的变化都是朝一个方向的,都是配合它脖子长腿长的,这不是一个基因的突变能解决的,而是基因朝着有利于适应环境的方向发展。

    其实尽是用我们现在的生物进化方面的理论来解释生物的进化还是远远不够的,比如,蛇如何生产毒液,这个是怎么进化而来的呢,它怎么就知道可以制造出这样的东西呢?

    其实进化论是个结果论,简明点说就是事后诸葛亮马后炮。用基因突变来解释是后人往上套的结果,自然界没有那么复杂但也并非这么简单。
  • y
    yyahtt
    = = 其实我们是另一种生物的试验田?..
  • a
    allensakura
    用盡廢退論是倒果為因
    人類再鍛鍊也不會改變基因,同樣鍛鍊程度下也絕對沒辦法贏天生肌肉大的對手
    蛇毒有分多種,究其根本全部都是蛋白質組成的,往前推也可以推到一些分泌類的消化酵素
    說進化論不能解釋的人根本沒有明瞭所謂競爭優勢是怎麼一回事,看起來具有競爭力的特性最終未必真的有環境競爭力
  • a
    allensakura
    對了
    進化論可以經由小規模實驗得証,用盡廢退說至今沒有辦法用實驗得証
  • g
    gamefoxer
    寒武纪大爆发与达尔文进化论
    请参看此词条
  • 金眼妖瞳
    您试试看把纯净水通电产生氨基酸给我看看啊!如果不行,那是什么变成氨基酸啊,不管是什么变成氨基酸,这个东西是哪里来得?
  • f
    fujin
    笑话,时至今日还有人认为进化论是异端?

    主流科学界早已有定论,进化论不是什么假说,而是铁板钉钉的事实
    唯一不清楚的尚待完善的,不过是进化过程中具体的机制等技术细节
  • 伊弗列姆
    求科普,进化论怎么解释人的脚趾退化了。
    现在日本人的身高是牛奶支撑的,和遗传没有关系么?就是说比方说下一代的日本人都停牛奶,他们会集体缩到二战前日本人的身高水平么?
  • f
    fujin
    现在还有人相信用尽废退?
  • k
    kelaredbull
    http://baike.baidu.com/view/109009.htm
    自己科普去,你们讨论这种话题之前能不能好歹复习复习中学生物啊。
  • O
    OpEth
    所谓“进化”“退化”的说法其实是很不精确的,本来就没什么进退可言,俺觉得统称演化比较合适。。。。。

    身高因素当然和营养有很大关系,牛奶只是一个方面,其他方面的饮食营养也比二战前大幅提升了。。。。。

    人类已经基本上停止演化了,因为自然选择因素在人类种群中已经基本不起作用,绝大多数人都能顺利长大成人并繁衍后代把他们的基因流传下去。。。。。
  • h
    handsomeken
    为什么要大幅度灭绝?